Curse

eudas · Mar 08, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

The reason the henchies do such stupid things is because they're simulating real players... >:)

eudas

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 08, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Henchies are great. All they need to do is remove charge from them so it's easier to pull.

Also, it would help if the Healer henchies stopped to heal whenever they were fleeing or backing away, becuase sometimes I'll backup and they will too - refusing to heal a dying party member.

It would likewise help if all the henchies (besides the healers) had res signets on ever map and USED THEM when someone dies in battle.

linz85 · Mar 09, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

I dunno about the DP part, i had 45% DP doing henchie queen run with 4 other henchies, all died and ressed up. Around 25 scarabs around there and we took them on no problem. Actually I died and the henchies killed rest. Either they have way alot of life or dunno but we finished it and 2 staffs dropped

. 5 Man queen run rocks.

hmmm ive killed that damn boss 3 times now and no avail. no green for me. is this a myth?ive done it with 2 monks and 2 wars and myself.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 09, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

And for the love of god, please ANet fix the monk AI so they stop battlefield-rezzing! I've lost count of the times I've wiped because both mhenlo & wotsherface has decided to stop healing & protecting in the middle of a pitched battle to rez Dunham or Claude.

obastable · Mar 09, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Can't say I've had many problems with henchmen.. it just took some trial and error to figure out how to control them.

It also helps if there are 2 human players in the group (not just one). You gain much more thorough control if the burden is shared.

A couple of tips..

1 - Always call your targets (helps if you know what targets to take down first.. but nonetheless, call what you're attacking), and your henchmen will always follow your lead. Lather, rinse, repeat <- meaning call EVERY target, not just the first one. If you don't call each target your henchmen will, from time to time, choose their own (and not necessarily the ones you want).

2 - Don't attack to pull aggro. Just run into aggro range, and run back (if you actually have a run skill to get ahead of your henchmen, use it). There's always an off chance that a mob will initiate combat with one of your henchies, but just keep going backwards and they will eventually follow. If you attack, you're initiating combat, and your henchies will take this as a sign to fight to the bloody death.

3 - Keep in mind that Mhenlo will always rez Lina first (if she's dead) before any other henchmen, and vice versa. Monks take care of their own.

4 - If you don't want a dead party member ressurected mid-battle then move the battle out of range of the corpse. This should keep your healer hench pre-occupied. There are odd times when they'll start running back and forth between the fight and the corpse, incapable of deciding which is more important, but they'll rarely decide the rez is more important than the current battle.

5 - Much like #4, if you don't want your henchmen to stand in a chaos storm, or meteor shower, or whatever fiery flaming death is falling from the sky (or coming up from beneath you).. simply move away from it. If you move enough, they'll move, too.

For best control of your henchmen, though, you need 2 human players (as I mentioned above). You can pull aggro easier, control it more effectively, heck.. you can even run with an effective trapper. Just have one player stay back and keep moving (side to side works), and the henchmen will stay back with them. Have your other player go forward to gather aggro, trap, or do whatever. So long as the first dude stays to the back and keeps the henchies dancing from side to side, they won't come up and pester whoever's out front until they're brought foward.

My Fiance and I have taken a crapload of characters through the game, using nothing but henchmen. It's so easy I'm almost tempted to say that A-net should make it harder.

Zehnchu · Mar 09, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I’ve experienced all those and a few odd ones, for some reason all the henchmen decided to attack separate targets other then the one I called. And I wish they would do something about Dunham always casting distortion all the time.

arcanemacabre · Mar 09, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

Can't say I've had many problems with henchmen.. it just took some trial and error to figure out how to control them.

It also helps if there are 2 human players in the group (not just one). You gain much more thorough control if the burden is shared.

..................

My Fiance and I have taken a crapload of characters through the game, using nothing but henchmen. It's so easy I'm almost tempted to say that A-net should make it harder.

I'm gonna say I agree with you on this. My wife and I have been eating through the game pretty much nonstop with henchies. Once you've got the hang of how to deal with their quirks, they're easier to work with than a normal PUG by far.

Some things could be fixed (not going into it since it has been covered many times over), but they are definately a breath of fresh air. Somewhat skilled teammates that don't talk back, go AFK, call you a noob, or quit in the middle of a mish.

Make it harder? Well... I would say smarten up the mobs, but just make sure your henchies aren't any dumber than the mobs.

Manda Panda · Mar 09, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

While they did fix the hench not to stand in AoE, I still think they have trouble sorting out their priorities (like the healer who can't decide who to rez.) I was trying to cap a skill in perdition rock the other day, and one of the hydras cast meteor shower. I moved out from under it and they followed. Then they realized they weren't killing hydras, so they ran back in. Then they realized that those meteors HURT so they ran back out. Then they realized they weren't killing hydras...you get the picture. I'd almost rather they just stand under the damn thing and maybe do some damage while they're getting themselves killed.

beleg curudin · Mar 09, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

The three below, But there is one thing that SERIOUSLY effects the game, When in a GVG, and I have one human monk and one henchmen monk, MY flag runner goes to get a flag and ALESIA FRICKEN FOLLOWS HIM! thus my whole team gets slaughter from lack of heal, and hence I have lost the GVG, because Arenanet cannot give equal brain distribution to monster and henchmen AI.

C) Fleeing 1 - Typical when your character is a distance fighter, when you turn to flee, 75% of your henchmen stay behind well beyond radar range, only to break combat after they have suffered roughly 90% damage
D) Fleeing 2 - Typical when you are of any character type, but especially a caster, when a mob surrounds the entire party, and you are targeted and are taking serious damage, you attempt to move behind your henchman fighters, only to watch them run ahead of you and break combat. Thus you are still taking damage, and are now being targeted by their former targets.
E) Area of Effect - Henchmen (particularly casters) are still not responding to AoE spells such as Maelstrom, Chaos Storm, and even Searing Heat. Rather than avoid these spells much like our enemy counterparts, they will gleefully invite masochistic suicide

felinette · Mar 09, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by obastable

1 - Always call your targets (helps if you know what targets to take down first.. but nonetheless, call what you're attacking), and your henchmen will always follow your lead. Lather, rinse, repeat <- meaning call EVERY target, not just the first one. If you don't call each target your henchmen will, from time to time, choose their own (and not necessarily the ones you want).

One thing I hate about henchies is that if I change targets, they do, too. Will this still happen if I've called the original target for them, or will they stick with a called target?

Quote:

I'm gonna say I agree with you on this. My wife and I have been eating through the game pretty much nonstop with henchies.

Because you've got two human players--that makes a world of difference. When I play with a friend and henchies, it's so much easier because you can deal with more than one target at once, instead of everybody going after the same target.

trf2374 · Mar 09, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I feel henchmen do need a bit of an update in skills. Perhaps a tiny tweek in AI.

Keep in mind, if henchmen get too good, then why would we want to group with normal players? Right now, I only group to help people to be nice or in PvE Tombs. However, my PvE Tombs grouping my go away now that I figured out how to do that with all henchmen, granted in a bit under 2 hours. Hopefully practice will lower that time.

WasAGuest · Mar 09, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

I feel henchmen do need a bit of an update in skills. Perhaps a tiny tweek in AI.

Keep in mind, if henchmen get too good, then why would we want to group with normal players? Right now, I only group to help people to be nice or in PvE Tombs. However, my PvE Tombs grouping my go away now that I figured out how to do that with all henchmen, granted in a bit under 2 hours. Hopefully practice will lower that time.

Friends, guildies, family... they have this great ability to talk to us, while the henchies... well, you know. It's also more fun with people you know. There are those times though where:

1) no one is on you know and you don't want to hear whining.
2) are sick and tired of so called "elitests" complaining they died cause it was [cough] someone elses fault.
3) just not in the mood to group with anyone.

It's all really a matter of taste and opinion. I want the option of having henchies that are smarter (they are supposed to be human) than the roaches in the desert (scarabs). At the same time, I want the option to not have to sit idle for 10 to 20 minutes "lfg".

As a side note; I solo'd with henchies all the way to the desert. After that, the henchy IQ seemed to take a nose dive. Not sure if something was updated at that point or what, but till that point I found them useful. Once in the desert... well, I've stepped in stuff smarter than they are.

Edit: please note, I'm NOT asking for an easier game. I'm asking for smarter AI on both sides. Currently the mobs actually work togther as a team. Mob healers stay in the back, mesmers and rangers interupt, tanks rush to the front and go after the healers and eles. They work together.
Henchies, lol - we know how they act. Healers rush to the front lines to tank. Ranger and mesmer wand and shoot arrows doing as little damage as possible. And henchy eles do nothing but cause the "smarter" AI to break what aggro there is and charge the back lines.
Commands would go a long way to fix this. Other wise, the hechies should act like their mob counterparts. Tanks should rush the healers and mesmers, rangers and mesmers should interupt... blah blah blah. Henches should only concentrate on your target when you (or someone in group) calls it.

Grasping Darkness · Mar 09, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I could get mad but its so ridiculous i really laugh out loud. My fav is while at a low lvl , capping in snake dance , Alesia lets the party die to run in and res me in the middle of a pile up of 8 beastmasters. \,,/__(>.>)__\,,/

trf2374 · Mar 09, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Friends, guildies, family... they have this great ability to talk to us, while the henchies... well, you know. It's also more fun with people you know.

All too true, however I just haven't really clicked with anyone in game to really consider them a friend & add them (or vice versa) and my guild consists of my family - my brother & wife. I don't imagine I'm alone in this, nor do I think I'm a complete jerk to play with (quite the opposite I hope).

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

It's all really a matter of taste and opinion. I want the option of having henchies that are smarter (they are supposed to be human) than the roaches in the desert (scarabs). At the same time, I want the option to not have to sit idle for 10 to 20 minutes "lfg".

Beyond GvG and HoH, why would you want to do a random PuG if the henchies were better than a large part of the GW population? This is true at least in my experience. Thunderhead Keep hard? Not with henchies. Hell's Precipe rough? Not with henchies. Now for me, the only thing faster in PvE Tombs than my "henchway" group is a B/P group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

As a side note; I solo'd with henchies all the way to the desert. After that, the henchy IQ seemed to take a nose dive. Not sure if something was updated at that point or what, but till that point I found them useful. Once in the desert... well, I've stepped in stuff smarter than they are.

Around this time you are expected to have developed some strategy in the game. Rushing head first isn't going to cut it. So, you have to learn how to pull groups of monsters, or hit them when they're alone and sneak away ninja-like. Granted, pulling with henchmen is sometimes harder and where I feel some command to say /stay would be helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

please note, I'm NOT asking for an easier game. I'm asking for smarter AI on both sides.

Smater AI all around, but I'd rather the mobs be smarter than the henchies. The henchmen will always have at least one human player on their side, which should be more than enough. Right now, the only challenges I find are purposely handicapping the group with fewer members, Soloing FoW and PvE Tombs, and I appreciate a good challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Tanks should rush the healers and mesmers, rangers and mesmers should interupt... blah blah blah. Henches should only concentrate on your target when you (or someone in group) calls it.

Actually, I feel that tanks should intercept the other tanks, which is how I use my henchmen. Also, you are able to wand one baddie and cast on another without the henchmen changing targets. Granted, I do wish the ranger & mesmer were a bit brighter and the monks need a few skills looked at. However, I was impressed to see the Tombs monks using Remove Hex. I do wish they both wouldn't try to rez the same char at the exact same time. I also end up getting double-heals like this. I would like to see them be a little more independent and split up the heals & such, along with condition removal.

Something to also consider would be perhaps adding some secondary skills to henchmen? I wouldn't mind that on the baddies either.

felinette · Mar 09, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Also, you are able to wand one baddie and cast on another without the henchmen changing targets.

Hmm. Every time I cast, the henchies change target to the opponent I'm casting on. What's the key combo to change target and cast without alerting the henchies?

moriz · Mar 09, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

you can't, unfortunately.

also with the new update, henchies seem to be able to trigger aggro as well.

AnnaCloud9 · Mar 09, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Thanks for all the input

I wasn't suggesting the henchfolk be revamped to make the game easier by any means. Honestly, GuildWars isn't difficult with the henchmen at all, however I was trying to create a list of mechanical issues that they seem to have (such as the double-resurrection/heal, and the always make-me-giggle resurrecting at the shrine after we've all been reborn - who is Mhenlo trying to bring to life anyway?) :P

Some possible fixes to help control how our henchmen react (rather than act) is what I was shooting for, such as pinging the radar to call them back instantly, or recognize their own aggro bubble to avoid running in to resurrect within a nasty bunch of who-knows-what. Oh and the monk looking after the monk is certainly correct - but even the worst group of PCs I've been with recognize that during a grizzly fight, putting your secondary healer out for 8 seconds while they try to resurrect (if using a spell) is all it would take to turn your last hour in Tombs into just that: an hour, with the familiar descriptive addition of wasted in front of it

P.S. - Thank you again for the input, and thanks for staying on topic

*waves*

WasAGuest · Mar 09, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Beyond GvG and HoH, why would you want to do a random PuG if the henchies were better than a large part of the GW population? This is true at least in my experience. Thunderhead Keep hard? Not with henchies. Hell's Precipe rough? Not with henchies. Now for me, the only thing faster in PvE Tombs than my "henchway" group is a B/P group.

I really wouldn't, but then, I don't general go with PuGs these days anyway. All it would mean for me (others may go differently) is a faster way to get something done. I was just trying to cover a possible "ideal" blanket possiblity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Around this time you are expected to have developed some strategy in the game. Rushing head first isn't going to cut it. So, you have to learn how to pull groups of monsters, or hit them when they're alone and sneak away ninja-like. Granted, pulling with henchmen is sometimes harder and where I feel some command to say /stay would be helpful.

Yup, I would hope so. I was simply refering to my first time through the desert, learned real fast too. However, as you also say, pulling with henchies is more difficult. I call it an effort in frustration and an instant head ache giver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Smater AI all around, but I'd rather the mobs be smarter than the henchies. The henchmen will always have at least one human player on their side, which should be more than enough. Right now, the only challenges I find are purposely handicapping the group with fewer members, Soloing FoW and PvE Tombs, and I appreciate a good challenge.

Henchies with humans is true, and we can hope the human is smarter than the henchies. However, without a way to control the henchies, we will never know. If the henchies did their class roles even half as well as the mobs did theirs, then we could have a real battle going on. We could up the mobs health, armor, add more skills to the mobs lists and much more. Why? Cause the AI could allow it. Balance being the name of the game here, mobs too much better than the henchies would chase away all the people who don't want too group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Actually, I feel that tanks should intercept the other tanks, which is how I use my henchmen. Also, you are able to wand one baddie and cast on another without the henchmen changing targets. Granted, I do wish the ranger & mesmer were a bit brighter and the monks need a few skills looked at. However, I was impressed to see the Tombs monks using Remove Hex. I do wish they both wouldn't try to rez the same char at the exact same time. I also end up getting double-heals like this. I would like to see them be a little more independent and split up the heals & such, along with condition removal.

Tanks vs tanks, tanks vs healers... it's all situational. But you get the idea. Being able to tell "boombsie" and "nitwit" (insert your favorite henchies) to attack mob X would be ideal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trf2374

Something to also consider would be perhaps adding some secondary skills to henchmen? I wouldn't mind that on the baddies either.

Or the henchies, if they would actually use the skills rather than run around like a clown in the circus. Excellent idea.
The real point for me, I guess, is to make the henchies more useful than fodder.
If someone puts a group together and can't find a monk, wouldn't it be nice to be able to take the monk henchmen and know the nitwt wont suicide or try to tank? Yea, I know, I've seen some human monks try and tank too... but that's beside the point. lol

Age · Mar 09, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I will say this ever since the AI update the henchies have gotten worse.I can not believe that Alesia and Lina both have ressing contests when one is dead they both stop to res this is the level 17 to 20s.I was trying to cap feast of corruption up in DD and it took me me like 6 trips from the res shrine.The same goes for the rest of them except Reyna who is alway there and is the last one standing and has a good bow shot.I haven't seen the henchies this bad since the game came out when they would fly off.The only good Alesia is level 3 and 6 when it comes to 10 she likes to tank as well as Claude.I know Anet would rather us use reall players as the game was intended to be the henchies are just there if you need that extra party member and it has bee 15 min since forming groups.I would rather take a Pug over henchies any day.

/rant

Toben_Hexx · Mar 09, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Something I thought was ridiculous from day one was the lack of henchmen controls.

If we could set them up with primary/secondary objectives before a fight, and had simple onscreen buttons for Fleeing, Attacking(so you dont always have to go first) and I don't know what else, it seems some of these problems may be avoided.

Besides, we're "paying" them, they should do what we want.